More Witch
StuffCoven of Cythrawl
POSTINGS
(Number 361 & 363)
Responses and questions to INTRODUCTION TO WICCA and subsequent response
Greetings Azaz,
Thank you for your interesting article on Wicca, I'm
sure it very well written, however there are is a
point I wish for clarification.
> It can be done - our distant ancestors, according to
> scholars, knew
> how. They knew how to live with Nature, to
> understand the reasons
> behind it. They had a basic knowledge of the
> balance, which is a
> part of everything seen and unseen - something we
> have lost in the
> centuries and millennia that have passed.
May I know which scholar supports this notion? I'm
only aware that such theories are outdated by now from
my anthropology course, and that it is a myth that our
ancestors actually 'live with nature' except for
selected evidences which does not entirely reflect the
culture on the whole. I'm aware that academic studies
take at least one generation to sift out to the
public, so I'm curious whether this still stands. But
if you can kindly point out any new and recent study
that still supports this idea, I would be delighted.
fff
Azaz response
Thanks for the posting and the private email. I'm very happy to hear
that you are on the final steps to joining the craft over there in Oz
and look forward to hearing from you again after entering the Circle
for the first time. I will send you a return private email as to my
background and heritage line that you requested later. As always I
will look forward to meeting and getting a chance to catch up and
chat.
In answer to your posting question though my friend; is going to be a
more difficult, for contrary to the pointed and direct question,
(which should be simple enough), it will take time to answer as there
are viewpoints and biases involved and I want to be `more clear' as
what constitutes both in any answers to any questions. Hope the
posting is not too long for everyone!
As you well know Armon, it's so very difficult to write openly about
something that is so eclectic, especially on such a chat group, where
there are now people from all around the world with "experience" in
such nebulous and dynamic things as we discuss in this group, each
with their own very unique leanings, learning's and paths in life.
Everyone of us is truly a wonderful `individual' and to try and
collectively write about `something' so indefinable is indeed a most
difficult thing to do. I for sure do not wish to mislead, or appear
to write in such a manner that these `something's' appear as absolute
truth, because they are certainly not, just observations that I
perceive at this point in time.
However, if no one writes anything at all, viewpoints and lateral
thinking would disappear from our Pagan world and any writings left
would become merely a dogma for and to those that actually did write
something. (We've all seen that happen). Therefore, I still feel we
should every now and again put down our own feelings, (which at the
time feel right to us, but perhaps will change as one matures, learns
and moves in slightly different directions in life's course), which
is the whole point of having something so dynamic in the first place
and certainly the point of having something like this group.
Do you remember when we started to discuss this group at its
inception? Not easy to "front up" and go on record, so to speak, for
really - .down to basics - who the hell am I to speak anyway. I
really just hoped we could get a wonderful array of analytical and
experienced (scholarly) minds to discuss these very complex subjects
that are raised herein and then additionally help newcomers, (above
all, move off in a sound direction that at least has some merit and
not based on silly or hocus pocus wishes).
I realize that you, like everyone else, (me too) have your own views
based on your own perceptions and studies in the past, and more to
the point, still always do have wise council and astute
observations. I also realize that you would reserve yourself from
any reference to classical Paganism (as a historical root - rather
than an inspiration), quite rightly because your opinion is that of
the revival aspect of Wicca and you therefore, strongly emphasis
that/those points of view.
That is the inherent beauty of it all. I'm so afraid of going into
heavy pedantic's in any long winded discourse, as one portion may
ring true to someone, whereas another paragraph may balk at someone
else; but for the point of discussion and variation of viewpoints, it
is still a way of reaching out to everyone and expressing one's own
view and perceptions at that point in time, albeit biased in one's
own direction. It also gives the newcomer a chance to "see" in new
directions and this lateral thinking is very much what makes it all
so interesting and unique. They then have the chance to research and
delve further into any particular subject.
People go through life searching and grabbing and/or forming
opinions, perceptions and facts that become fixed or attached to
themselves at that point in time, often forgetting that a black or
white answer is not possible. Apart from our academic studies,
(where often it is defined in black or white), we need and pursue our
own personal path, wants or inner `truths' as fitting our psyche at
the time, which might (probably) change as time marches on.
As you know I have traversed the world and lived and studied in many
countries with very diverse cultures and loved every minute of it,
albeit making personal relationships hard to maintain. I learnt,
adopted, tried, and formulated `my own perceptions' as I moved around
and after finally coming to Asia, found that I was as comfortable
here as in my own native island and have stayed for longer than a
while now.
Each and every place on earth has magickal and/or spiritual leanings,
with their own version of "how to", based on supposed history, powers
and Deities, which merged with other perceptions of many academics
(often studying from afar) into what becomes `written' and therefore
fact somewhere and is then perpetuated in other works.
As you probably surmise, I'm certainly the romantic within the Craft,
but even with those/these viewpoints, I still try and mix my
own "views" with as much and many facts as I can possibly dig up, and
of course is where "our own" comes into it. I appreciate everyone
who writes in and asks questions and points out my verbal
misdemeanors and pedantic's as it helps me learn too and I hope I
never stop learning till the day I move on.
I also try and `outline' (if that could be construed as to what I
really mean here) to answering so many personal questions from others
in this group that send me personal email and are so afraid
(terrified) of posting it directly; with instant ridicule a real
possibility.
Remembering that we all must start somewhere! With that in mind,
when I reached my 3rd Degree in one of many paths I have trodden
many, many years ago, I gave a commitment to the Craft, to myself and
to others, that I would always do my best to help and assist wherever
and whenever I could and that I would seek guidance and council when
I did not know the answer, or to search when there may be much more
than one answer. That's me though, and I sincerely hope that I can
retain the patience and fortitude to continue this.
As you noted, we have quite a big group now and still slowly growing
and yes, it is getting very interesting. You also noted that you see
a lot of young people in it and, "hope they do a bit more reading
before participating in the discussions. Still it's a good thing to
have them around".
Well I guess you hit the nail right on the head there Armon! We
certainly want mature conversations and viewpoints posted, and not
have silliness or untoward jokes posted, as it will surely drive
people away. But also in the same breath, I reiterate that some
newcomers are well exactly that new, and wanted to come
somewhere that is indeed interesting, but not feel too out of depth.
Then they can write to me and I will try and answer their questions
to the best of my ability, while hopefully keeping it interesting for
the others in the group, which brings me back to the start again -
as the wheel turns. I can please some of the people all of the time,
all of the people some of the time....etc.
As to your relevant question of knowing which scholar supports the
notion that, "our distant ancestors knew how to live with Nature.
That they had a basic knowledge of the balance, which is a part of
everything seen and unseen - something we have lost in the centuries
and millennia that have passed?"
Are we then to define scholars in this case only the anthropologists,
historical or otherwise, or any scholar, (which by definition might
be a person with much knowledge and/or one who one who gives careful
attention to evidence/method), and we can imagine that is too loose
to be emphatic, but throws it all open to even one who follows some
socially accepted and definable path or another, and might
necessarily be biased within that particular structure system?
Indeed most of such theories are outdated now from any genuine
anthropology point of view which I agree in a broad sense. It is all
in interpretation though, as historical anthropology can only act as
a detective with little to actually go on in many instances.
Anthropologists who study present tribes or cultures cannot always
base their `historical perceptions' on studying the present either,
as time and cultures are constantly in flux and historical evidence
get marred with constant historical interpretations; even basic
cultures.
Your question, "Is it really a myth that our ancestors
actually 'lived with nature' except for selected evidences which does
not entirely reflect the culture on the whole?" Certainly we can
assume, and in other cases know, that certain "groups" of people
lived in these ways and still do. The Shamans for instance, with
perhaps historically the Druids, but we only have Roman observations
about Druids, (which of course were rather biased as they wanted to
wipe them out).
Whole communes in England would follow the wheel though, purely
because it was there. At each great change of weather and season, a
little "good luck" ritual was carried out and Gods and Goddesses were
invoked and that to me (as a romantic writer perhaps) tells me that
they are living with Nature. Ancient drawings found in caves further
supports that supposition.
The pedantics of the "total meaning" might differ here though and I
know it is good to have many points of view - the more the better,
which can help us all "feel" the "Way" rather than
constantly
questioning pure doctrinaire of something that cannot be simply
communicated intellectually by me or anyone else; it has to work
through an analogous process within the individual; a stream of
symbols, images and experiences, rather than a mere explanation, and
usually what I write down is from within me with my own biases I'm
afraid.
Hey, wait until I get onto magick and quantum theory
.Now that my
friend will cause some feedback to issue forth on these pages, as I'm
not a physicist and can only speak from a layman's interpretations,
but there are a couple of physicists in the group who I'm sure will
point me in the right direction. At least it is interesting and
starts a new direction.
As long as I (and others here) have moved other people's viewpoints
out of the normal groove and into lateral realms (to them), I
personally hope it is helping everyone's growth, including that of my
own when I lack `scholarly' knowledge. That is the idea of the group
once again for everyone to live and learn with new ideas constantly
coming out to us. When I run out of ideas, I earnestly hope that
someone else can keep the ball rolling until it too causes new neural
connections to become fired up and the postings will continue and we
will all be happy.
It's rather like that time someone asked, what constitutes the "True
Path" and how does one find it? A hard question and not so easily
answered and has been dealt with in various ways in other postings
before. What after all, is any `true path'? But, I thought at that
time I might bring a few relevancies up, perhaps for further
discussion with our members and therefore went ahead and answered in
a posting, showing lots of paths, rather biased my way of course,
which is my prerogative I hope, and then others can place their views
and biases.
However, where `facts' are concerned that apply to science(s), we
must be more careful and I hope that if I state what I thought/think
to be a scientific fact and miss-state it, or miss-construed the
scientific meaning, then I really need people to come back with any
corrections and/or observations, so that I can learn too!!
We are mixing so-called sciences with spiritualism (loosely worded
for finding our own inner truths here) and is not so easy to do but
isn't that the beauty? It forces us to walk the path and
actually `get out there and do it.'
Pure spiritualism does not need Priests and Grand Pubabahs', in
actual fact, as there is really no great Gurus "out there!" we are,
ultimately, all "seekers" on a similar path, or series of paths,
perhaps at very different stages, but never-the-less, still seekers
still struggling to know ever more and what is good for one, might
not be exactly the same for another. We are, as said, all different
and that again is the beauty of it, is it not?
We must live by experience, not someone else's liturgy of their own
particular journey! I keep saying to people who write in to me and
also on our forum here, that these paths we walk are definitely an
experiential belief system, not defined, or for that matter,
definable dogma.
As I've said before, there are so many similarities within many of
the ancient practices around the world that makes one wonder "if
there is a real core structure" (I'm still asking myself here Armon
and still don't know the answer) and that it is simply one's own
interpretation of what is written down over time and spread to others
by word of mouth.
Did ancient man and woman "really" find the secrets of these forces
and through proper working, find the ultimate key to spiritualism and
being at one with our Gods, Goddesses, forces and powers? I don't
know perhaps some did and many did not and some scholars who are
biased within their own realms support some facts, but certainly not
all.
But, it's still only conjecture and an interpretation per se.
Spirits, forces and otherworldly beings do exist in realms we cannot
comprehend ourselves, never mind verbalize and explain it all. So
how could they? Would the people that "might work" this magick,
(could they) write such things; so even if it were true, are we then
taking an opposing view, stating absolute fact that this "never"
happened? Based on not finding it and thus disregarding hints,
strange unexplainable structures/writings and/or other "things"?
We can experience some of this/these at times and certainly journey
to places we cannot describe ourselves. Because it happens
within/without us. Did it really happen? Could I prove it? If not,
does that mean it did not happen and we are mere romantics? And
around the world, over many generations, similar occurrences happened
to generations of genuine seekers and practitioners. Remembering
always that reality is in the eyes of the beholder! No amount of
theorising and intellectualisation can substitute for the actual
experience.
This however, has been changed and corrupted over the years to cater
for changing times, growing egos and other "people" things, but it
must be said that the core and the forces are still there and just
needs to be tapped into perhaps they always had and just kept
secret. So as a romantic, I like to maintain that/those views for
now.
No one can tell you how to do anything of course, or do it for you.
There is no quick recipe book; only hard work and actually "doing",
gives results, so that "WE" can experience ourselves. As far as the
realities of Gods and Goddesses goes, we perpetuate our "needs".
What one person calls Quan Yin in one area of the world "might" be
called Mary or Dianna in another, or is it yet a purer essence of
sorts?
You and I were recently talking about a book called, "Wiccan Roots"
by Philip Heselton, which the author (a Wiican scholar) says he
factually outlines the life or Gardner and Wicca today. Does it? On
the whole I find it interesting, but of course is written by a man
with his own biases (his prerogative of course). He mentions in the
early pages that Gardner owned and ran the first :Witchcraft Museum"
in the world. Is it factual? Yes as far as we know!? Totally
factual, relative to Gardner with pedantics in mind? No!
Actually, as you know the museum is on my home ground; the Isle of
Man, where I once even met the old coot as a child. However, Gardner
actually 'bought' the museum, which was housed in an old windmill in
Caslteltown, (as a working concern), from an old guy called Cecil
Williamson, who actually founded the museum in the 1940's. It was
very sadly sold to Ripply's by one of his ex coven members.
Gardner only really added his extensive weapon (mostly knives) to the
exhibits. So elucidation, and for that matter any interpretation,
can come about accidentally, by way of research or "reading" (and
what is research in the main?) and the fact that much of the writings
of today, especially Witchcraft is perpetuated without rhyme or
reason until someone with an influential name writes the same and it
appears to become fact.
Academic studies take at least one generation to sift out to the
public, as you rightly say, and this will continue as long as we have
researchers researching this path, ad infinitum; with some good and
some not so good theories, based on facts that might only relate to
one section of a whole. From the early days that people traveled
afar from territories to other territories, information, cultures,
practices and beliefs have passed hands willy nilly (exponentially)
and this also will continue at an obviously more rapid rate nowadays
and so life will go on.
B*B
Azaz Cythrawl
Degree System
within Wicca Working Tools of Wicca
Elements of Witchcraft More Witch
Stuff
Theban
Script
With Thanks
